Interviewee: Akiyoshi Hatanaka (Chief Curatorial Officer, MIHO MUSEUM)

He has been in charge of special exhibitions such as "Shigaraki - Heaven in a Pot" (1999), "Kenzan - A World of Mystery and Elegance" (2004), and "Future of Ancient Pottery - Ceramics of the Middle Ages" (2010). The Kenzan cooking photo book "Beautiful Kenzan Shikisai" (Beautiful Kenzan Shikisai), which he planned, won the Grand Prix (2006) and Best of the Best (2008) in the photography category of the Gourmand World Cookbook Awards, as well as the Best of the Best of 2015.

Interviewer: Masatoshi Yokoyama (Owner of Koto Potter)

Q. The value of Kenzan ware at the time

Yokoyama : Kenzan's works are said to be well-recognized for their value today, but I wonder how much they were worth in the eyes of people at the time. Were they luxury items that only a select few could afford?

Hatanaka-san : That's right. I think that everyday tea utensils that came from outside Kyoto were purchased by the townspeople, but Kenzan's works are a little different. For one thing, I think that the collaborative works with his brother were something that people could be proud of if they had them.

• Rust-painted square plate with peony design by Korin Collection: MIHO MUSEUM
• Image: Kenzan - A world of seclusion and elegance - MIHO MUSEUM

Yokoyama : That means it was quite valuable at the time.

Hatanaka-san : Yes, Kenzan's name does appear in a book that lists famous people from Kyoto. The book includes famous painters such as Maruyama Okyo and Ito Jakuchu, and Kenzan's name is also included in the list. In other words, if you own something made by such a famous person, you probably felt a sense of pride.

• Cherry Blossoms by Maruyama Okyo, owned by Tokyo National Museum
• Image: Colbase

Yokoyama : Kenzan's pottery works were a kind of brand name product, on par with the works of famous artists.

Hatanaka-san : Kenzan's family, Kariganeya, was a kimono shop that supplied the imperial household, with customers such as Tofukumon'in. As with the paintings of his brother, Korin, I think it had a big impact that the heir to Kariganeya was making pottery. I think it must have been an item that people aspired to at the time.

Yokoyama : I see. When I hear that it is a purveyor to the Imperial Household, it makes perfect sense to us in this day and age.

Hatanaka-san : There was a book written at the time introducing Kyoto's famous products, and Kenzan ware was included. It was definitely a very well-known and popular product. Furthermore, some Kenzan ware pieces use gold leaf. Using gold or silver to edge the pieces gives them an even more luxurious feel. As the pottery is fired multiple times, it takes time and materials, so the price naturally increases. I think Kenzan ware was in a class of its own compared to the ceramics that were commonly available at the time.

• Colored painting of wild geese and reeds on a porcelain bowl Collection: Idemitsu Museum of Arts
• Image: Kenzan - A world of seclusion and elegance - MIHO MUSEUM

Q. The difference in thinking between Kenzan and Ninsei

Yokoyama : Kenzan was taught pottery by Ninsei of Omuro -yaki. Both are considered to be the founders of Kyo-yaki and Kiyomizu-yaki, but when you look at their works, you can see that they had different aesthetic sensibilities and ways of thinking. What were the differences between their pottery making?

*Ninsei of Omuro ware...Researchers are divided as to whether the Ninsei who was involved with Kenzan was the first Ninsei (Nonomura Ninsei) or the second Ninsei.

Hatanaka-san : Ninsei's works are mainly tea ceremony utensils. Many of them were ordered with a specific purpose, and most of them were given to feudal lords. Ninsei had a superior named Kanamori Sowa . He would give orders to Ninsei, and Ninsei would create according to those instructions. Kanamori Sowa mainly had Ninsei create tea ceremony utensils. He would give orders according to his preferences, and Ninsei would create exactly according to those instructions. In other words, Ninsei did not come up with the ideas, but created them according to the orders.

* Kanamori Sowa ...Kanamori Shigechika (1584-1657). He was the eldest son of feudal lord Kanamori Kaneshige, but lost his position and became active as a tea master in Kyoto. He is known as the person who discovered Ninsei.

• Ninsei, colored plum blossom tea bowl, owned by Tokyo National Museum
• Image: Colbase

Yokoyama : I see. So Ninsei used his advanced ceramic techniques to create products that fulfilled orders. What about Kenzan?

Hatanaka-san : I think Kenzan was exposed to learning and culture as a man of letters and an intellectual. He had his own ideas about pottery. His work, which includes many paintings, literati paintings, landscapes, etc., strongly reflects this background.

• Rust-painted square plate with a picture of a seagull. Property of the Tokyo National Museum .
• Image: Colbase

Yokoyama : So Kenzan created his works based on his own ideas. Was the fact that he was born into a privileged environment a big factor in his success?

Hatanaka-san : That's right. Kenzan was born into a wealthy family, inherited Chinese books and other materials from his father, and was very interested in academics. I think his knowledge had a big influence on his works.

Yokoyama : That knowledge was put to good use in your work.

Hatanaka-san : That's right. Kenzan's work reflects the knowledge he absorbed, which gives his work depth. The knowledge he accumulated and output as pottery transformed into Kenzan ware.

• Rust-painted fan-shaped bowl with camellia design. Collection: MIHO MUSEUM
• Image: Kenzan - A world of seclusion and elegance - MIHO MUSEUM

Yokoyama : Was that something that set you apart from other potters at the time?

Hatanaka-san : At that time, potters were ranked lower than farmers. People who made pottery would go to the mountains, get covered in soot, and were considered to be of a lower social status. That's why I think that a cultured and creative potter like Kenzan was rare at the time.

Yokoyama : When you listen to it like this, it becomes clear that Kenzan and Ninsei had very different ways of thinking and approaches to pottery making.

 

Q. The impact of the emergence of Kenzan ware

Yokoyama : Thinking about it this way, we can see that Kenzan was an exceptional potter even back then. How was Kenzan ware received at the time?

Hatanaka-san : Including Ninsei, there is an image of Kyoto ware. Kyoto ware as we imagine it today. I think it was shaped by the taste of works by Ninsei and Kenzan. When it was brought to the countryside, it was presented with the message "This is from the capital (Kyoto)" and it sparkled like a diamond.

• Rust-painted blue and white porcelain serving dish Collection: MIHO MUSEUM
• Image: Kenzan - A world of seclusion and elegance - MIHO MUSEUM

Yokoyama : Items made in Kyoto by Ninsei, Kenzan, and others were coveted items.

Hatanaka-san : Yes. And at that time, there were kilns in various places that were used for garden ware by feudal lords. These were places that produced items in the style of the capital. I think that's how the styles of Ninsei and Kenzan spread to various places.

In terms of fashion, there was a time when Paris was said to be the center of fashion, and the designs of haute couture designers became trends all over the world. I think it's the same thing.

• Colored hydrangea design pottery kiln collection: Tokyo National Museum
• Image: Colbase
• Sangamagama is a garden ware kiln from the Takamatsu Domain. It is painted in the Kenzan style.

Yokoyama : It became popular with Kyoto as its starting point... Nowadays, with the development of social media, it's natural for celebrities to create trends, but even back in the Edo period, individuals had the power to spread information.

Hatanaka-san : The shogunate was in Edo and the political center may have been there, but with the emperor, Kyoto was the cultural center. I think there was a flow of things made in the capital and trends from the capital being spread to other areas.

Yokoyama : Did Kenzan take pride in the fact that he was making pottery at the center of culture?

Hatanaka-san : Yes, that's right. Kenzan is considered to be part of the Rinpa school. The Rinpa school was originally a reaction against the shogunate.

Yokoyama : Huh? Is that so?　　　

<Continued in part 3>

Thinking with an expert Kenzan <1> <2> <3> <4>

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